Posted by: secretperson | November 27, 2007

Union Jack to get PC Makeover

This from the BBC, a Welshman wants recognition for the Welsh dragon on the Union Flag, which is currently constructed from the crosses of St George (England), St Andrew (Scotland) and St Patrick (Ireland, well umm Northern Ireland I guess).

Fair enough. I mean it wouldn’t be fair to have a situation in which one of the countries of the Union was left out, for example by not having it’s own parliament when the others did, eh? But Labour’s Margeret Hodge says the Governement want the flag to be “a positive symbol of Britishness reflecting the diversity of our country today and encouraging people to take pride in our flag”.

Uh oh, representing diversity. What could that mean? Maybe a muslim crescent in one corner and a Star of David in the other (not too close they might fight). There ain’t no black in the Union Jack, the racist saying used to go, but there might be soon. And maybe St George’s contribution to be dropped, after all who is proud to be English. Calling yourself English is a bit racist, St George wasn’t really English. England isn’t a real country anyway, English people are mongrels and aren’t ethnically pure enough to be a real country.

The proposing MP Ian Lucas also said “we have a new constitutional settlement that affords Wales its true place in the Union”. Well it’s alright worrying about symbols in that case. We here in England would probably worry more about the flag if our “true place in the union” was represented.

I support independence. There’s no need for a dragon on the Union Jack if we all have our own flags. (PS a dragon on your flag is cool, you lucky Welshmen!). My main fear is that Labour’s inclusive flag will represent our diversity with a brilliant inclusive design of twelve gold stars, in a circle, on a blue background. Don’t say I didn’t warn you.

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Responses

  1. […] Hat-tip to The Secret Person […]

  2. The welsh dragon? They “borrowed” it from the Romans! It come from one of them legionnaires pole thingeys innit. Ha! ha!
    Anyway, besides that, I thought they hated the union? Now they wanna be on the union flag to! What? Of course I shouldnt be stating they as it isnt all of them. It’s pathetic new labour! Typical new labour idiocy. Those types will do anything to keep power and if it means trying to get the welsh involved then so be it. Like the welsh are gonna swallow Brown’s tripe. I dont think so. They’re as smart as we are. This ONE new labour fascist is only doing what his master is telling him to do anyway. Bloody sycophant. New labour think they can steal the welsh nationalists flag!!!!! They have as much chance of doing that as they have of keeping us down!

  3. Well M Anderson I have to disagree. Nothing is gained by sneering at the origin of the Welsh dragon, it is much older than my own English flag, taken from a foreign saint. I object when people try and put down St George, it has been our flag for long enough and has grown to mean something. So has the dragon for the Welsh.
    As for hating the Union, the assembly only just got voted in, it was hardly convincing I suspect both the Welsh and the English object to the Union more (I know I do). It’s a shame if the MP in question is doing this as part of Brown’s Britishness agenda, if I was Welsh I’d feel slated not being represented on the flag. However as I point out, the democratic deficit facing England is much more important than the symbolism of a flag.

  4. The cross of st george isnt the English flag! It was installed by the Normans for the POPE who gave them permission to invade England.
    The real English flag is the white dragon banner mate! Go here http://www.whitedragonflagofengland.com/
    to see

    As for you disagreeing with what I said, I was taking the piss out of the taffs. Big deal it aint like they dont do it to us. Maybe if we were able to laugh at each other a bit more things would be easier to deal with. I think something can be gained out of being honest with each other. They dont like us much and vice versa. That dont mean we cant get along.
    Besides that I have welsh cousins and they dont cry about my piss taking. And, I have to state it mate, but on top of that, you sound like you’d fit in with new labour fascists. You know, the “you caaaaaaaaaaaaaant saaaaaaaaaaaaaaay thaaaaaaaaaaaaat!!!!!!!!!!” pc rent a pc mob! The whole essence of England is being free to express yourself. You are telling me im wrong for doing that. I will never give that up.

  5. Wow I have never been called PC before! Fair play I didn’t take your comments in jest, you are of course free to express yourself as I am free to disagree. It just reminded me of some of the bollocks, spoken in all seriousness against the English by the British imperialists. I didn’t say you couldn’t say it, I said nothing would be gained from it.

    You are wrong about the White Dragon though, that’s a bit of a fringe theory, flags in the pre-conquest times tended to be personal banners not national ones. I think the White Dragon, or was it a Wyvern, was the flag of Wessex. We probably won’t know. As for St George, he was adopted by Edward III for the Order of the Garter, and it became more official by the time of Henry V. It was not the flag of the Norman conquest. It was under Edward III England started to re-establish its identity amongst the nobility after 300 years of Norman oppression. It was the time of Chaucer writing in the English language and it’s estimated that up to 95% of the ethnic English could be descended from King Edward. George was chosen as a warrior saint for a warrior nation. I am happy to keep that flag.

  6. “Under banners blessed by him Roger advanced to the conquest of Sicily, and William to the conquest of England”

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01286a.htm
    CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Pope Alexander II

    1066The Norman Conquest of England. William’s invasion was supported by the papacy, which had quarreled with Harold Godwinson. Harold had refused to carry out the papal decision that the incumbent archbishop of Canturbery, whom he felt had not be canonically elected, should be deposed. The pope sent William the banner of St. Peter. However, having become king of England, William decreed that no clergy could go to Rome, receive a papal legate, or appeal to the papal curia without his permission. Gregory VII (1073-85) later claimed that the Donation of Constantine required that William be his vassal, but William refused.

    http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/7224/Rick/chrono11.htm

    http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~jhammell/hammell02hastings.pdf

    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/britannia/anglo-saxon/hastings/hastings.html

    I think the White Dragon, or was it a Wyvern, was the flag of Wessex. We probably won’t know.
    A Wyvern is a totally different heraldic symbol and a different colour! I dont want to argue with you as I assume we have the same aims.

  7. I said a banner, not a flag. I never said anything about not keeping the banner or flag wgatever you want to call it. I am saying that it’s the flag of our enemies and was used against England! It is perverse to use it and call it ours when it isnt ours.
    Under banners blessed by him Roger advanced to the conquest of Sicily, and William to the conquest of England.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01286a.htm

    Gilbert of Lisieux returned not only with a blessing and public approval from the Pope, but also a banner to be carried in battle

    http://www.essentialnormanconquest.com/encyclopedia/pope_alexander_II.htm

    you can see the banner here
    http://www.essentialnormanconquest.com/encyclopedia/banners.htm
    its the one of the left

    I think the White Dragon, or was it a Wyvern, was the flag of Wessex. We probably won’t know.

    A Wyvern and Dragon are different things. For one thing a Wyvern only has two appendages; a dragon has four.

  8. The English are shown to have the Dragon Banner of Wessex over Harold’s headquarters in the Bayeux Tapestry. This was similar to a Roman flag, in the form of a wind-stocking. Harold is also said to have flown his personal standard, the Fighting Man.
    The Normans at Hastings were given added confidence by the presentation of a banner by Pope Alexander II to sanctify their mission

    http://www.essentialnormanconquest.com/encyclopedia/banners.htm

    Under banners blessed by him Roger advanced to the conquest of Sicily, and William to the conquest of England

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01286a.htm

  9. Now I have accepted all your postings despite the repeated links, I don’t censor my blog, but a word of warning, they all got detected as spam! It took me a while to check my spam filter.

    I was well aware of the Pope’s blessing of the Conquest, but I didn’t realise one of the conquerors carried a Cross of St George. (Not sure it was the Papal banner spoken of though – could it have been a personal one?). It does refer to a White Dragon of Wessex (not England) I had also heard of a Golden Wyvern of Wessex. I didn’t mean to suggest they were the same symbol, merely that even Wessex’s symbol is not well established.

    I appreciate your concerns about carrying the banners of conquerors, but maintain that it’s establishment as an English symbol came as we overcame the Norman yoke to re-establish ourselves as England. Anyway as you said, we are on the same side, historical arguments about symbols are something we can worry about when we have our country back!

    I’m off to check up on the Bayeux tapestry.


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